In the spring of 2012 Debbie Hall [landress] received a telephone call from JEFF STOKES, living at Adelaide, Australia !
“… all we have at present is a mention of the Rose and Crown at North Parade on our (Stokes) grandfather’s side.”
Further research by Jeff Stokes
… reveals that Will or William was Daniel and Harriet’s son, born 1834, one year after they married in 1833. William married Anne Goddard in 1856 and after that I lose him until 1871 when they lived in Oxford St.Giles(Rose and Crown). I cannot directly connect William to Harry, my great grandfather. Harry’s parents were George and Matilda Stokes of Oxford St.Paul, I have the certificates. There is obviously a family connection, but what that is I do not know at present. Our grandfather was there in 1891, but not in 1901 when he was 18, which would probably be correct in those days. So my research tells me your history is correct in that William is Daniel and Harriet’s son, but my great grandfather, Harry, is not William’s son. I know Harry is my great *1 grandfather because his wife’s name was Elizabeth Bell Dalrymple, that is on our grandfather’s birth cert. One other minor point, I think Daniel was only25 when he bought the land, not 35.
mail received 26th June 2012: Harry and Elizabeth Stokes shown in 1881 census at Rose and Crown are my great grandparents, he was shown as the innkeeper, but at this time Will Stokes is in your History as the Licensee. This is possible, innkeeper may not hold license. Connecting Will to Harry is proving difficult to be 100% sure of. Daniel and Harriet appear to have had a son named William in 1834, but Harry’s parents, George and Matilda of St. Paul, also appear to have had a son, William, in 1841. Thus Will could be Harry’s uncle OR his brother. I have Harry and Elizabeth’s wedding cert., married at St. Paul’s church in 1874, Harry’s father was George Stokes who was also a witness. Harry was also christened there on 13th.Aug. 1848. His parents, George and Matilda, lived in Observation St. in what is now called Jericho, I think. It is possible that Harry’s father, George Stokes, born 1809, don’t know where, was Daniel Stokes’s brother. He was born in 1811 at Minster in Thanet, Kent. Harriet Quartermaine, Daniel’s wife was born in 1809 at Chislehampton, Oxfordshire in the Garsington district.
It is hard to nail down because there may have been more than one couple called Daniel and Harriet Stokes and more than one George and Matilda Stokes in the period in question.
If Will is Daniel and Harriet’s son, born 1834, 1 year after they married, he married Anne Goddard in 1856 and died in Headington district in 1915.
*2 Also, one odd thing in your history, it says Harry’s wife, Mrs. C Stokes took over the license from 1916 until 1925. Harry’s wife’s name was Elizabeth, formerly Dalrymple. Is it possible Elizabeth died or left and Harry re-married? Should the C really be an E??
(edit: scroll down to para starting December 2nd, 2014)
If any of this rings any bells with anyone, please get back to me. By the way, the 1881 census is FREE, you can see Harry, Elizabeth and children all at the Rose and Crown!
mail received 22nd July 2012: Harry Stokes’s father, George, was Daniel Stokes’s brother or a relative from Kent. I think Daniel was born at Minster, Kent in 1811 and George was born close by at Sandwich in about 1805. I should get Harry’s birth Cert, this week from Oxford Registry office and that will confirm his parents. Still have no real info on which William was your licensee. Daniel’s son William lived in Cranham St. Jericho in 1881 and he is shown as a compositor. Harry is shown at Rose and Crown in 1881, but I know he lived in Jericho in 1883.
Daniel and Harriet are shown in Kent in 1881 with grandson, another link with Kent. Stokes Family, received 29th July 2012 It looks as though Harry’s father, George, was Daniel’s brother, both born in Kent, not far apart, both had parents called George and Elizabeth. They both appear in Oxford records in early 1830’s and in Saint Giles Oxford. The thing that clouded the mix was Harry’s mother, Matilda, was his father’s 2nd wife, so the William born 1841 is his half brother. Harry’s father is also listed as a gardener/farmer and in your history, Daniel initially ran the plots as a market garden.
The big mystery is who the Will or William in your history is. I think Daniel and Harriet had a son, William, born 1834, but I am fairly sure in 1881 census he was living in Cranham St. with new wife and children from both marriages and he was listed as a compositor. (Clarendon Press just down Walton St.) His younger sister, Louisa Jane at same address with her family. I think it is possible that your William is Harry’s half brother and that Daniel and George may have run the land to-gether, but Daniel appeared in the records because he could write. I have Harry’s wedding cert. and his father made his mark on it, indicating he could not write.
I quite realize that this deviates from your history before Harry and the list of licensees does not match other dates, but the licensee may have been a silent partner.
mail received 20th August 2012: Recently received Harry Stokes’s birth cert. and his parents wedding certificate. Harry was born at 7, Observatory Street, Saint Giles, Oxford (Jericho) and it confirms his parents were George and Matilda Stokes. His mother was George’s 2nd wife and this caused some confusion about older brothers, one of which was William Stokes, born 1841, but I can’t find him after 1861.
Harry’s parents wedding cert. is very interesting, it confirms his father was a widower and that his father, Harry’s grandfather, was indeed another George Stokes. The most interesting thing is that one of the witnesses of the marriage was Daniel Stokes, the founder of your pub and this is further confirmation that Harry’s father, George and Daniel were brothers from the Isle of Thanet in Kent, parents George and Elizabeth. So, Daniel Stokes was Harry’s uncle.
The 2 brothers seem to have come to Oxford from Kent in the early 1830’s. George Stokes and Sally Ann Hunt were married at Faversham in 1829, but had a daughter, Sophia, in 1932, christened at Saint Giles, Oxford and Daniel Stokes married Harriet Quartermaine in 1833 at Saint Giles, Oxford. Daniel and Harriet had a son, William, born 1834 at Saint Giles, Oxford. I am sure I have the link between Daniel and Harry, BUT, I cannot find how William Stokes fits in or which one had the license.
Harry’s half brother seems to be missing after 1861 census and I am sure that the William Stokes in the 1881 census living at 50, Cranham Street with his 2nd wife, older children by 1st wife and his younger sister’s family is Daniel and Harriet’s son born in 1834, he is shown as a compositor and Clarendon Press is just down Walton Street. In the same census, Daniel and Harriet, aged 70, are shown living or staying in a cottage at St. Lawrence, near Ramsgate on the Isle Of Thanet with a grandson who is the eldest of William’s younger sister already mentioned. Phew!! In 1881, William is listed as the licensee, so cannot make sense of it.
Another little tit bit I found, George West, another licensee, is in the 1881 census, born Chinnor, Oxfordshire in 1843 and listed as a Licensed Victualler at Wycombe.
Sorry it’s a bit long winded, I’m sure now my direct line leaves the Rose and Crown after Harry, although it looks as though George Stokes may have been involved on the land which Daniel or both of them bought. I wonder why they both came to Oxford around 1830. Best Wishes,
mail received September 18th, 2012: Rose’n’Crown history, The last marriage cert. I told you about has virtually finished my research into my paternal line in Oxford, but as Daniel Stokes was a witness on that marriage cert. in 1846, I would like to find out how the family and your pub are interconnected. I also know you would like to confirm some things, like when the pub was built. There is a researcher, Jennie .. Regards,
mail received 7th November 2012: Rose & Crown/Stokes family. I made contact with St John’s College, looking for proof and/or a list of licensees and looking at available sources and possible avenues to follow.
The archivist at St John’s was very obliging, but sadly had nothing of any use whatsoever for us. His basic answer was ” **St. John’s has never owned North Parade; it was* *one of a few segments of North Oxford that have never been ours.”** and so was never sold by them as leasehold plots. I must say I find this a little puzzling as I have found various references that talk about St John’s College and landownership in North Oxford. I may need to question him more fully at some point, but for now will take his answer to be true. This means that the sale that (according to the existing pub history) happened in May 1833 at the Horse and Jockey did not involve St John’s. Such a sale or auction would have been advertised in the local paper and evidence of such can probably be found fairly easily in the local paper of the time.
I would also like to take as look at the St Giles enclosure map of 1832 to check the detail of the plots of land situated in North Parade and see if they are freehold or leasehold and in whose name they are held. We would then know who (in theory) Daniel bought or leased the land from. I can also see if any pre-enclosure maps exist for the area that show what was there prior to the ‘cottage’ that Daniel built.
Derek S Honey in his ‘Encyclopaedia of Oxford Pubs, Inns and Taverns’ claims that the site was originally a group of farm cottages, which were part of a market garden owned by Daniel Stokes in 1836. He says it was in 1865 that Daniel apparently ‘converted’ one of these cottages into a small pub of 2 rooms with a passageway to the cottage at the rear. Mr Honey also claims that a William Stokes became a tenant in the pub for Hall’s Brewery until 1882 when it was taken over by his wife Harriot (!) and then their son Harry. Unfortunately he fails to reference these statements and so where is his evidence I wonder. Paul Marriott’s Oxford Pubs Past & Present published in 1978 may be where he has taken the buildings information from. This does give a bibliography of 14 items some of which would be worth checking out.